Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis participated in a discussion with the Director of “Monocle” magazine, Andrew Tuck, in the framework of the Greece Talks conference, co-organized by Travel.gr and Proto Thema at Grande Bretagne Hotel. The discussion follows:
Andrew Tuck: Well, nice to see you, Prime Minister, and great to see so many people here in this room for this conversation. I briefly met you in 2021 when I came to Athens, just as Monocle was looking to bring its quality of life conference to the city. At the time, there were a handful of planes landing every day in the airport. When we came to see that there wasn’t a single restaurant open in the city, and people were wondering whether tourism would ever bounce back. But, how has 2024 been for tourism in Greece?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Thank you very much for the opportunity to have this interesting discussion. It’s been another bumper year. We’re very happy in terms of the provisional data that we have received from the Bank of Greece. Arrivals are up, revenues are up, and it seems that we’ve also been able to successfully start extending our season, which means that the September and October data have been particularly encouraging.
Of course, for cities such as Athens, I think we have succeeded in turning them into a year-round destination. But again, as I’ve said numerous times, the challenge is not just to bring in more people, but to make sure that the visitors who come, actually spend more time in Greece, and of course, spend more money in Greece.
This is related both to extending the season, making sure that not everyone arrives in July and August, but also to make people more familiar with new destinations in the country, be it undiscovered islands or parts of continental Greece, which are virtually unknown to the travellers who come and visit us. I’m sure you can help us in this effort to present a part of Greece that is not so known to many travellers.
Andrew Tuck: Yeah, so Monocle has been very pleased to work with Greece at trying to tell some of these stories about other parts of the country. As someone who put on a very thick jacket this morning to come here, I can see why the season is extending even into this month. It’s nice and warm. Now, tell me, how do you judge success? I think around the world, people are wondering, is success the number of people coming, the average spend? How are you looking at it? Because I saw some of the projections for numbers, maybe another 5 million tourists coming every year by the 2030s. Is that sustainable? Do you judge success by the total number, or is it the revenue that you’re looking at?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Of course, we’re looking at the revenue. But for me, the true measure of success is customer satisfaction. Are people actually happy to visit Greece? Do they feel that they get a unique experience? Do they feel that they get a value for money experience? I think on those metrics, Greece is scoring very, very well. People who come to Greece, in general, enjoy their time. They want to come back, and they want to discover other parts of Greece which are still unknown to them.
Of course, tourism is a very, very important sector for the Greek economy, bringing in more than €20 billion last year, and I expect that number to also increase this year. The challenge, as we look forward, is to make sure that this growth is properly managed, that we are ruthlessly implementing an appropriate sustainability strategy, and that we send a signal that this growth is, at the end of the day, not at the expense of the locals who also need to benefit from the increasing number of tourists that may come to Greece.
Thank God, we are clearly not at the point where other countries are, where you see a reaction by the local communities against tourists coming into their countries. This has not happened in Greece. I don’t expect it to happen in Greece. I think the local communities understand that tourism is particularly important in terms of supporting domestic income and creating jobs. But again, this transition from where we are now to where we want to be in 5, 10 years needs to be very, very carefully managed.
Andrew Tuck: Just tell me on this question, let’s do the over-tourism question now, because it is arising all around the Mediterranean countries. Many people are concerned about it. As you said, you haven’t had those street demonstrations here in Greece. Is it the job of the central government in every place to begin to narrate something that’s a bit more interesting about the positive impact of tourism? Because it felt that this summer in a lot of places, people forgot to start narrating what’s important.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Let’s forget what under-tourism looked like. Let’s remember how Greece was when we had to shut down due to COVID, when you were here. Or let’s return to a different time when high-end tourism was practically nonexistent in Greece. Let us remember where we were, where we are now, the fact that tourism is an industry that creates lots of well-paying jobs. The average salaries of people working in tourism are higher than the average salaries in other sectors.
Let’s understand that tourism is not just an economic activity that is related to a few large corporations, that is an activity that we can spread across the entire country, that you can have small businesses that can be very, very successful by offering quality tourist products. I think we are very convincingly making the case why sustainable tourism is very good for the country in order to avoid phenomena like the one you describe.
But again, when I look at Greece, and we are always in a very open dialogue with all the stakeholders from the tourism industry, I really do not sense that we are faced with the problems that other countries are currently experiencing. But again, there are certain warning bells. For example, we know that we have a couple of islands that are struggling in terms of their infrastructure and where we need to be careful in terms of our interventions in order to ensure, again, that the customer satisfaction is the one that people expect.
We may have some problems with short-term rentals in parts of Athens, where we really feel that in certain neighbourhoods, these rentals are crowding out locals. That’s why we put a one-year restriction on new short-term rentals in order to assess how the market is going to find its new equilibrium. We are very carefully monitoring what is happening and ready to intervene whenever we think that it is appropriate to do so.
Andrew Tuck: I think I know the couple of places you’re referring to, and does it pain you when you see British newspapers running these stories again and again about the same places with queues and with too many boats arriving at the same time?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Exactly.That’s why we don’t want too many cruise ships to arrive at the same time in Santorini and Mykonos. We want to make sure that we do a proper berth allocation. If people have to pay a small additional fee to disembark in those ports, they should know that the money goes towards improving the local infrastructure. That is why we are always in discussion also with the local communities, because at the end of the day, this is about offering the best customer experience, whether you’re coming and disembarking from a cruise ship or whether you’re paying, I don’t know, a 1,000 or 2,000 euros a night to spend in a high-end hotel in Mykonos and Santorini.
Of course, we understand that local resources, waste management, water management, are always stretched during the months of July and August, but we are able to cope with this pressure. What I don’t want is for people to write a review that they go to this wonderful place and then they have to wait in queue for hours to access it, and that at the end of the day, their experience was not what they expected it to be because we have not done the appropriate job of managing the tourist flows in the best possible way.
Look what we’ve done at the Acropolis, for example, where we have very clear time slots, and we can welcome up to 20,000 visitors a day, but we do it in an organised manner. People still have a great experience. Okay, it’s not with many other people, but we have avoided the problem of overcrowding our number one cultural attraction.
Andrew Tuck: Tell me, as Prime Minister, as in many ways, a chief diplomat for your nation. Do you see tourism as a soft power play? Because it’s fascinating for me how many people who speak so positively now about Greece around the world. Maybe that conversation was a little bit difficult a decade ago. But you meet people again and again who I think for people in this room, Greece has such a potent soft power at the moment. People feel so positive towards Greece and I wonder if that is partly because of just the numbers of people coming here, having this satisfactory experience, as you say. Do you see that the people who work in hospitality and serving drinks and looking after bars and restaurants, do you see them as diplomats as well?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Of course. That’s right. They know, because this is a service industry, they know that they have to be friendly, open, and project the best image of the country and that is why we very much insist on making sure that businesses don’t cut corners, that everything happens within the parameters of the law. But you’re absolutely right to point out to tourism as an element of Greece’s soft power.
There’s another part of the story that people experience when they visit Greece, and that is a story of a very resilient country because people still remember the difficult years of the financial crisis. This is a country that has been able to bounce back from a very dark period, and that is embracing the future with a lot of optimism. This is not just about our natural beauty, our unique cultural heritage. This is also about a country that is very much forward-looking, that is embracing all these new trends when people are really looking for unique experiences.
At the end of the day, this is about telling stories. And Greece has lots of interesting stories to tell beyond your typical summer holiday on a well-known Greek island. That is why, for example, we have been so focused on promoting new destinations.
Mainland Greece, many people don’t know. They’re very surprised when I tell them that it actually snows in Greece and that we have lovely mountains and they can actually come in Greece outside the summer months and experience a very, very unique holiday that is still very original.
The topic I understood of this discussion has to do with cosmopolitanism. Cosmopolitanism in my definition is embracing diversity while also staying very faithful to our roots. These local experiences, whether it is local food, local music, this is what people are really looking for these days. Of course, there’s always a mass product that we need to cater to. But this is a tremendous opportunity for us to encourage people to discover parts of Greece that are completely unknown.
Of course, when we also look at our cultural heritage, I don’t think enough people actually come to Greece only for the cultural heritage, which is really a pity because you’re talking about one of the great civilizations of history. Visiting our cultural sites, not necessarily during the summer months, actually offers a much better experience.
That is why we’re also investing in flagship projects such as a new Archaeological Museum, which is a long-term project, a very visionary project that enables us to also focus on a part of Athens that is currently recovering.
We do see it as becoming a central point of this image of a new Greece that is embracing its heritage, but with a constant view towards modernity and a changing world.
Andrew Tuck: National brands are obviously super important. Just tell us how you see where “brand Greece” starts now, because you talk about this cosmopolitanism, which I think is a really strong force, especially when lots of other people are slightly backing away from that. What is “brand Greece” for you today?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: We have, for the moment, shied away from coming up with one brand that defines the country as a whole. Some countries have done that, some have done it more successfully than others.
But again, what Greece has to offer is, in my mind, very clear: unique natural beauty, very friendly people, an unrivalled cultural heritage, and unique experiences that are very different depending on where you actually are in Greece. Of course, a focus and a commitment on sustainability and on making sure that we preserve this unique natural and cultural beauty that is non-negotiable as far as the government is concerned.
Maybe you can help us to come up with a nice catchphrase to describe all this. We have not been able to do so. Unless we are able to come up with a logo that describes what we feel Greece is all about, we will probably shy away from branding Greece in the traditional way that other countries have branded themselves.
Andrew Tuck: You’ve been very successful at finding inward investment, of bringing brands into Greece, especially in the hospitality sector. Is that a challenge? Because you now have so many international players arriving here. You talk about there’s not just one Greekness, but there is certainly something that is special about getting off the plane or the ferry and being in Greece. Do you think that there’s any concerns about holding on to Greekness as you expand?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, we’re happy to welcome big international brands, but we’re also happy that we have extremely successful Greek business people active in the hospitality sector that develop their own brands. When I see Greek companies moving abroad and expanding abroad, using the brands that they have actually developed in Greece, that makes me very proud and very happy because at the end of the day, international brands are important. But when you look at the quality of people who run tourism, and in particular, hotel operations in Greece, I mean, these people are really up there in terms of the quality of their operations, and of course, their vision about their tourism product.
Again, I really want to focus that this is not just about the big brands. It’s not about the big hotels or the big integrated resorts. This is also about the small hotel operator who we need to support by giving him or her the right tools, for example, to do digital marketing, and then it can have a small 20, 30-room hotel or even a smaller premise, which makes him at the small scale, a successful business person. So, this is not just about the big players, it’s also about the small players.
It’s also about developing new products, the whole villa hospitality sector is a new sector that is emerging. It is a reality. It complements our main tourism product. The way we encourage this development while at the same time protecting the natural environment. It’s a challenge. But I think we have a very clear path forward and a pretty good understanding of where we want to take our product over the next years.
Andrew Tuck: Tell me, as Prime Minister, I presume you get off the plane in numerous capitals around the world and you’re taking some of the best hotels and some of the best restaurants. As you go around the world, are you envious of any other capital? Do you see things you think, “okay, we could do with a little bit more of this back home in Greece?” What’s your call?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I would be very arrogant if I believed that we’re doing everything perfectly, and we’re constantly looking for best practises and for ideas that we can also implement in Greece. Of course, everything needs to be tailored to the peculiarities of the country or the city. But we need to be aware that we are in an incredibly competitive market. Other countries, other cities are not staying where they are. They’re also improving. That is why it’s also very important for us to be competitive. Competitive, in my simple definition, is offering good value for money, regardless of whether you pay €100 or €1,000 per night. The product needs to be of a quality that is what people expect.
Of course, there’s always a temptation, especially in an inflationary environment, for businesses to raise their prices and to hope to make short-term profit. But at the same time, this may undermine the long-term competitiveness of the industry. We also need to be careful in terms of how we price our product, and as much as we like to be proud of what we’re offering, to be very honest about our shortcomings and to constantly try to improve. It is very, very easy to become complacent. The market, because this is an international market, does not forgive countries or sectors that become complacent.
Andrew Tuck: Tell me, when we look at the big infrastructure you have here, is it up for coping with all these numbers coming to the country? Will the airports, the ports, the subway stations, will they cope with the numbers of people arriving?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I think that’s a very good question. Of course, I cannot offer you a simple answer, but when, for example, you look at Athens, the Athens infrastructure, we have a very, very efficient airport that is looking to expand. We have a Metro which we are expanding. The biggest public works project in Greece, as we speak, is the fourth line of the Athens Metro to be probably completed in five years. These are long-term projects. Of course, one of the big issues we’re struggling with, as are many other cities, is traffic and congestion. We talk also with the Mayor of Athens about ideas of how to manage that.
But if you look at our overall infrastructure, one of the important decisions that we took some years ago was to privatise 14 most important regional airports. We’ve invested significant amounts in upgrading them, and they’re now all of them state-of-the-art airports. We’ll probably be looking to do something similar with the smaller airports that you’ll find probably on the smaller islands.
I still think we need to do work with our ports. We have privatised quite a few of the ports. The smaller ports are in clear need of investment. For example, on the island of Santorini, we will build a new port, because it is very clear that the old port is struggling to accommodate the volume of ships that want to come to the island.
But I’d say overall, if you look at our roads, we have a very, very modern network of highways, and we are actually going to be able to complete some of the outstanding projects very soon.
Of course, speaking of big infrastructure projects, I’ll be leaving right after this discussion to go to Thessaloniki, where we will be inaugurating, after 30 years, tomorrow, the Thessaloniki Metro. This is not just a public works project, which is incredibly important for the city. It is also a museum. What we’ve done in Thessaloniki is truly remarkable. We’ve actually removed ancient artefacts and then put them back in place. And especially one station, the Venizelou station, which we will present today, is absolutely stunning. I think it’s probably unique in the world. When you actually go through an underground museum to reach the train.
So still work to be done in terms of infrastructure, but I think probably most of the big projects have already been completed.
Andrew Tuck: I think we see this with Monocle when we go around the world. If people see some benefits, then they’re along for the ride, as it were. Then you can bring people along in this conversation.
Just tell me, you have some of the biggest leaders of hospitality in Greece in this room. There’s a certain amount you can do as central government, there’s lots that sits with the regions. What’s your challenge for the world of business for what happens next in tourism?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I’m very happy because we have a very open and frank dialogue with the tourism sector. They’re extremely well-represented. When it comes to the strategy that we have put together with the Ministry of Tourism, we basically see eye to eye. We have challenges. Labour shortages, for example, is one challenge we’re beginning to face.
Andrew Tuck: Sorry, how can you change that? Is that with more schools for training?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, I think one of the big challenges we will need to address, and we need to do this with the tourism sector. We don’t want this to be just a public education project. It seems to me strange that we consider Greece to be one of the top tourist destinations in the world, yet we don’t have one of the top tourist schools that would train young, aspiring men and women who want to go into the tourism industry.
So focusing on training, whether it is formal training or informal training, making sure that we convince young people that a career in tourism, a long-term career in tourism is worthwhile pursuing, because, of course, you will always have many young students who work for the summer, and then will end up doing something differently.
But really marketing a tourism career as a first-line choice for young people, I think, is an important priority, and we need to work with the tourism sector to do that because we are already faced with labour shortages. As you know, unemployment in Greece has come down from 17% to under 10% during our time in office, and the labour market is already tightening.
I’m happy because we have collective agreements in the tourism sector that offer much better wages than our national minimum wage. So one of the big challenges for the tourism sector is to make sure that the employees are also happy and content. I mean, tourism is a profitable sector, and I want to make sure that everyone benefits from the success of the sector. After all, this is a service, this is a quintessential service sector. And if the employees are happy and they feel that they’re part of the success of the business in which they work, they will end up doing their job much better. But I think I’m preaching to the converted. I think the big business leaders and the big hotel operators in the room are very much investing in their human talent.
Andrew Tuck: We only have you for a couple of minutes because you need to go and inaugurate that subway line. Quick small one and then a final question. Just tell me, you see up-close tourism, especially in Tinos and Crete, where you have family connections and where you go to regularly. Do you see those both as nice case studies? Do you see the challenges up-front as a Prime Minister?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Yes, because they’re actually quite different. Crete is a very big island. It’s the biggest island, you almost don’t feel that you’re on an island, but it was really lagging in terms of infrastructure. We’re building a new airport on Crete. It’s going to be ready by 2027. Critical in order to be able to accommodate incoming traffic, because, of course, most people come to Crete by plane. We need a new highway, and this is also in the process of being constructed. So Crete was really lagging behind in terms of basic infrastructure. And these are big public works projects which are, of course, driven by the central government.
The more you move towards smaller islands, the more the involvement of the local authorities and the local mayors is becoming more important. Smaller islands may be smaller problems. But for example, it is not acceptable to me that there are still islands which have not completely solved their waste management problem. When you look at, for example, a small island, Tilos, they just received an award. They are recycling 90% of their waste. If this model has worked on Tilos, why can’t it be exported to other smaller islands?
The biggest challenge that our islands are going to be facing is water management. There again, we’re talking to the local municipalities and the local water authorities, and we tell them, ‘Look, you need help’. If there are projects, for example, desalination plants, rather than you running around and doing your own individual contracts, let the big water management company that we have in Athens help you in order to address this challenge.
We now have a big decarbonization fund for our islands where we’re actually receiving ETS (Εmission Trading System) credits, depending on the prices, could be up to 2 billion that we will use in order to interconnect our islands, but also to develop local projects related to renewable energy.
My belief is that the islands can really be at the forefront of sustainability and decarbonization, but it’s also up to the local authorities. For example, if I were a mayor, I would really push for electrification of my scooters, for example, rather than having all these noisy scooters going around creating lots of commotion. It’s difficult for us to impose this. That’s why we need to explain also to the local municipalities that this is a way forward.
We did a project in Astypalaia, which was an island that was not particularly well known, regarding smart mobility -we did it with Volkswagen-, and suddenly out of nowhere, Astypalaia became a destination simply because it was able to market itself as an island that is at the forefront of smart mobility. So there are numerous opportunities, but we need the local authorities, the mayors, the regional governors, to understand that this is really the way forward.
And of course, when you make these changes, maybe you ruffle some feathers or small interests that will object to these initiatives. But it’s, in my mind, a great opportunity to really not just move in the right direction, but to do it at a much faster pace than many of our competitors.
Andrew Tuck: They’re desperate to get you out of here and up to Thessaloniki, but let’s just leave people with a bit of vision. Just tell us 5, 10 years time, if you’re the next Prime Minister, maybe sitting up on the stage, what should be the vision for Greece that you would hope it could achieve in that time span?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I’ve been unapologetic in claiming that Greece needs to be the best destination in the world. Full stop. What we have is truly unique. We have the natural beauty, we have the cultural heritage, we have the people, we’re in a stable part of the world. I think the strategy that we have put forward is the right one. For me, it’s primarily a question of delivering and making sure that Greece is the first destination that pops to mind when people want to travel. We’re getting there, but we still have some work to do.
Andrew Tuck: Prime Minister, thank you so much for your time this morning.
