Andrew Mueller: First of all, and there may not be a short answer to this, but is there any way you can describe what the last couple of months of trying to be Prime Minister of an EU and NATO nation have been like?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Complicated and challenging. But I guess in every crisis, I want to see the possible opportunities. Certainly, the last two months have been, in a sense, a rude awakening for the European Union, especially for those of us who have been making the case for Europe’s strategic autonomy. I’m happy to see that at least some progress has been made in terms of the decisions that we have taken at the level of the European Council.
Andrew Mueller: Where do you see those opportunities, though? Is this in the idea of a more united, more cohesive Europe?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, at the end of the day, we have to realise that the strategic challenges that we have to address require bold decisions. When I’m talking about bold decisions, obviously, I’m also talking about financing and about putting money on the table, especially when it comes to defence. For example, I have been advocating for more fiscal flexibility at the national level in order to finance defence spending for quite some time.
When I first raised this issue, my colleagues were not ready to move down that path. I’m happy to see now that the progress is being made in that direction. We have a new financial instrument, say if it’s €150 billion of loans, which is not my preferred solution, but at least it’s a step in the right direction. For the first time, I see countries such as Finland, openly talking about exploring all financial options to finance projects of common interest when it comes to European defence.
In a sense, this reminds me a little bit of the months before we agreed the NextGenerationEU plan when many countries were against this idea, only to come on board at the very, very last moment.
Andrew Mueller: But do you think Europe has got past the point in the last couple of months, in particular, and perhaps especially since Vice President Vance’s speech at Munich, of taking the United States for granted? Is there now a sense dawning among European countries that maybe that relationship is not coming back? Maybe Donald Trump isn’t a glitch?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, I think it’s almost a cliché to make the point that for many, many years, Europe has been taking its security guarantee for granted in the sense that we have not spent as much as we should on our own defence. Greece is the exception to that rule because of our particular security concerns. We have always been spending more than 2% of our GDP on defence. This argument was made by President Trump back in 2017. So this is not something which is new.
Having said that, Europe is currently not in a position to replace NATO and the US dominant role within the Alliance when it comes to our own collective security. So certainly, we need to work very hard to keep the United States on board while recognising at the same time that we need to do more to protect ourselves. I think we are moving in that direction. Maybe not at the pace that I would like, but certainly, progress has been made.
Andrew Mueller: On the subject, though, of Greece’s particular situation, as you delicately put it, would Greece have anything, do you think, to teach Denmark or maybe Canada about how to manage difficult relations with a NATO ally?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, let’s say our history with Turkey goes back centuries. It is a complicated relationship. I do believe that at the end of the day, two things need to happen. On the one hand, Greece needs to present a very, very credible deterrence in terms of defending our sovereignty and our sovereign rights. That is why we are heavily investing in modernising our armed forces.
At the same time, one needs to explore pathways towards building a more productive relationship, even if that means not addressing the complicated underlying issue, which is at the heart of our dispute with Turkey, which is the delimitation of maritime zones in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean, where frankly we have not made any significant progress.
So, even if we agree to disagree on important issues, that does not mean that we need to be constantly at each other’s throats, nor does it mean that we cannot explore opportunities to strengthen our relationship on other fronts. And it certainly requires honest and open channels of communication, which I think we have established with Turkey at all levels. I think it’s important, even when we disagree, to be able to openly talk to each other.
Andrew Mueller: But has there been much conversation among EU and NATO heads of government about how to manage what has been from the United States, fairly explicit threats against the territory of two other members of the Αlliance?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Frankly, we have not yet reached a common position on how to address this challenge. If you look at this from the perspective of Greece, for example, Greece has a strategic partnership with the US. It’s a strategic partnership that transcends any given president. It’s a partnership I do want to nurture and I do want to strengthen.
At the same time, I’m a member of the European family and a committed European, so we need to also manage the relationship with the US within the European context. When we talk, for example, about tariffs and possible trade wars, I support the approach that the Commission has taken, which so far has been measured.
I was happy to see that President Trump decided to step down from his more aggressive tariff measures and give us three months to negotiate what could be a mutually advantageous trade arrangement.
Andrew Mueller: But this must be particularly… I’m sure it’s frustrating for every European country involved in this, but for a great maritime, great shipping nation such as Greece, which controls, I think, a fifth of the world’s commercial shipping…
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Almost a fourth.
Andrew Mueller: Almost a fourth, indeed. But you can’t plan long term not knowing what the United States is going to do from one day to the next. So does Europe, and indeed the rest of the world, have to think about how we do remake an international trading order that doesn’t necessarily have the US at the heart of it?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I cannot imagine Europe and the US breaking from each other when it comes to trade. China is a more…
Andrew Mueller: That’s a confident thing to say this way.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: It is. Indeed. But I would not be as confident if I spoke about China. At the end of the day, Europe is based on an open international order, a rules-based international order, which has free trade at its centre. And certainly, Greece, we’re a small open economy. We control, as you said, a quarter of the world’s maritime fleet. 80% of the world’s trade takes place via the sea through ships. So we also have a strong interest in ensuring that goods flow from country to country and continent to continent because our shipping industry is providing this service.
I do fundamentally believe that globalisation has created such complex supply chains and interdependent interests, which will prove very, very difficult to break. And I think that the markets also send a very, very clear signal to the United States that very aggressive decisions and measures will cause significant short term pain. And at the end of the day, the markets -we know something about this- certainly for a small country, they are important. But I think they’re also important for the world’s largest economy, which is the US.
Andrew Mueller: Is there a temptation, though, or will there be temptations for European countries, Greece in particular, perhaps given its dependence on maritime trade, to try and think of itself as maybe an exception in Donald Trump’s thinking about Europe? I know every country in Europe thinks it has a special relationship, but to think that “maybe we are the special ones”, because you will know President Trump has always spoken actually quite highly of Greece, he seems to speak highly of you, he has done just in the last few days. Is there any temptation to think…
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Look, I’m not naive. We will not break with the majority of European countries when it comes to our relationship with the US. But again, when we talk about trade, this is primarily a European prerogative, so we need to be united. But when we talk about security and defence, then I think that national interests still play a very, very important role. For example, as I told you, we have a defence cooperation agreement that has been signed with the United States that is due to be renewed in 2026, and I do intend to renew it.
I think it’s a difficult challenge to balance these relations, and we try to do it to the best of our ability, depending on which topic we talk about.
Andrew Mueller: I do want to ask about some domestic aspects, because we’re speaking here at the Delphi Economic Forum, which was rather upended by the fact of a general strike occurring in the middle of it, and a lot of this does still seem attached to this dreadful rail disaster of a couple of years ago.
Are you surprised by the degree to which that seems to have been lit upon by a clearly not small number of Greek people as a metaphor for everything? It often happens with a particular incident in the life of the country -we see it happening in Serbia at the moment- that something terrible happens but people seem to think it represents something beyond it.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Well, I don’t think there are any profound similarities between what’s happening in Serbia and what is happening in Greece. Certainly this accident was a big collective trauma. I’ve been very, very clear in terms of letting justice, trying to get to the bottom of it, and making sure that those who are responsible will pay the price. Our responsibility is to ensure that this never happens again, and that we offer safe and reliable trains to Greek citizens. That’s what we are working on.
Unfortunately, when things get very emotional and heated, lots of theories tend to dominate the public discourse. Unfortunately, I don’t think that we still know the whole truth, but I do know that this tragedy has been exploited by the opposition to hurt the government. At the end of the day, this does not do service to justice, nor does it help the cause, especially of the relatives of those who lost their lives in this tragedy who, at the end of the day, want the truth, they want justice, and they want to make sure that this never happens again.
Andrew Mueller: Well, just finally, then, I believe you have recently said that you intend to contest for re-election in 2027, and you hope to continue as Prime Minister. What do you still regard as unfinished business? If you think back to what you hoped you might be able to do for Greece when you got the job versus how far you’ve got with that project up until now, what is there still left to do?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: So much. Look, this is a country that’s in the process of a very profound transformation. I think we have received a lot of credit for our economic management. We’re no longer the sick child of Europe. Our economy is outperforming most European countries. When I look at, for example, the reforms that the German government is currently announcing, lots of those reforms we have already implemented in Greece.
Andrew Mueller: You must be enjoying that irony in particular.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I don’t think it’s an irony. I think I have a very open discussion with the incoming Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, who has been very, very bold in terms of his announcements.
But we still know that there is a lot of catching up to do in order to converge with Europe. And this remains our main priority and this requires still important structural deep reforms.
Look, for example, at tax evasion. Everybody thought that this was endemic to Greece. Every single government in the past had committed to addressing this problem. No one succeeded. We have. This is giving us a lot of fiscal firepower. When I talk about returning the collective wealth that we create back to citizens, this is exactly what I mean. We need more jobs. We have brought down unemployment from 17% to 8%. We want to bring it down to the EU average very quickly.
I want higher wages. I want lower taxes. In order to do that, you need a sound and strong fiscal position. Greece is consistently producing significant primary surpluses. Our borrowing costs have dropped significantly. These are the foundations upon which we should build all our policies. Rest assured, there is a lot of work to do until 2027, and there will be a lot of work to do post-2027, should the Greek people decide to, again, place their trust in us.
